Is Traditional SEO Dead? Optimizing for AI with Dante Fiorini

I heard a statement uh recently that SEO or search engine optimization is dead. What's your opinion on that?

Everything turned into ads. Everything uh really uh you know small companies couldn't compete with large ones spending thousands and thousands of dollars and adwords and it was so unfair type of advanced technology in their hands without education. We made mistakes. Uh we made it with cell phones. Is AI hype or help? Good day and welcome to the show. I'm your host Pete Cooper and our topic is AI hype or help. Today's guest is Dante Fiorini. He runs a digital marketing agency called Zentina based out in Spain, but his experience straddles three continents and over 20 years.

In fact, he started his career as a graphics designer and has seen the emergence of technology over the last 25 years. He's also embracing AI and using it as a tool in his business every day. So, he has some unique insights about AI and where it's headed. Let's get into it.

Good day, Dante. Good day. Welcome to the show. How you doing today?

I'm doing great. Thank you, Pete. It's great to see you again and thank you for having me.

Yeah, it's been a pleasure. Dante, you and I worked together. We were part of a networking group. You were actually the leader of the group and you left for some personal reasons and I think we all understand that.

But maybe just for the audience, you could tell us a little bit about your business and and and what you do.

Of course. Uh well, I've been involved in digital digital marketing for over 22 years now. Um founded a company in Southern California back in 2004, but I started early 2000 with um my um marketing practices. I am an illustrator and a graphic designer. Um that's my degree, let's say it.

Uh but then I been involved in um you know every single aspect of uh marketing campaigns. Uh I've started from ground zero working on a print shop in Los Angeles in the year 2000. So that was fun.

Um and I witnessed the transition between uh analogic and digital you know so I think it was a a really an advantage over you know some people that he's been in the industry for many years but uh witnessing the whole process and transformation uh you know was was amazing so

yes I mean what we're talking 25 years ago plus now um

I mean back then I think graphics design wasn't necessarily digital was it I mean there was a lot of graphics design

no Actually, I graduated from our school and I learned drawing by hand and uh on paper. So, uh that's how we used to do the mock caps and you know the the start the layouts and everything.

Uh I built my first website in 1998

and uh the mocap was on paper. Uh so yeah, it's it's been like I said it's been a fun ride.

Yeah. Right. So um we have seen a similar evolution. I can remember the the emergence of the internet. I was actually at college. Uh I and then I got a job at at the uni where I studied and then they brought in the internet. And someone said to me, "Oh, you should be on the internet. " What's that? Oh, it's so that universities can, you know, communicate with one another. So, I learned email from that. That was in the I guess the mid '9s. And then, wow, things just changed dramatically from there to the next big to big breakthrough was the web, right?

The worldwide web, which all of a sudden meant that you could get access to so many information. Now, as a electronics designer, I used to have to get these books and go through the books to find the data that I needed. Then it was all of a sudden on uh CDs and you could invest $20, 000 on all the CDs, but then the web came and it was all from the companies just there instantly available to me. And so there was a real breakthrough for me in the power of the websites very early on. But of course it wasn't really very elegant um designed. But you said you could bring that to it, right?

Yeah, I know.

At the beginning it was plain HTML and um you know um I'm more of a a graphic guy, an artist, let's put it that way.

So I struggled a little bit with the coding part of it um because I had no one to go to, you know, I had to discover things by myself. So I I really literally built my own sites from ground zero coding it and everything graphics myself. Um we used to use uh flash. I don't know if you remember back then. Um that was a that was amazing because it was an experience that

um I could could take advantage because I was an illustrator. So I could create my own vector illustration and animated with flash and then use it as an intro for the websites.

And we were like the very first doing it back then.

And uh I don't know if you remember but every single website used to have a flash animated intro and it was

it was fantastic. It was a great time. It was really

So um one of the areas that I have absolutely no skill in which is designing. I have really I can see it when it looks great but I have no way of doing it myself.

And I think that's a really core skill um that you you would bring to the table and I can see why that would be a foundation because if you can design something that's an attractive website um then you know honestly getting the coding especially nowadays done for the back end of it there's a lot of people out there that can do that but if you can create the the layout and the graphics and how make that look good you know that's a to me that's a very high value activity that can't be easily

Oh yeah definitely Because you know we you know as humans we get attracted by by colors and forms you know it's natural you know you better like something or not you better may understand it or not but

you are attracted to it. So definitely a good design helps you know uh bringing people's attention. Um, of course I always value efficiency as well. You know, I think uh I always tell the people I really like uh efficient websites rather than beautiful ones. Um because uh at a certain point you know uh we need to prioritize um you know the marketing tool which is the website and and how it works.

And if you load it with a really heavy video, the video could be amazing but if it's not loading nobody's going to really browse your site. It's going to help problems. So maybe you know it will be smart to you know optimize that part of the website to make it more agile you know.

So efficiency you said um being able to load that would be one aspect. Is there any other aspect of efficiency that you

Oh yeah nowadays it's yeah efficiency has many colors. I mean efficiency, it's a user experience, you know, how the the user interacts with the website. How many steps the person needs to take to get what uh he or she is looking for. That's critical. I mean, these days everything so fast that efficiency, it's also, you know, how long it will take someone to get to what they're looking for in your website, you know. Yeah.

Um, and again, I mean, you can decorate it and make it beautiful, but if you hide the content from the person that is browsing it and it make it difficult for them to,

um, find uh, you know, what they're looking for, it's, you know, you have a problem right there. You know, again, a lot of beautiful images, but it may be distracting. You know, so,

um, you need to balance. You need to balance both. I think that's the perfect answer. Balance. So you and I have both witnessed the the changes that have happened and I remember one key change was when uh Google came on the scene.

Um and I remember walking through the office must have been 2000 2001 and all of a sudden the computers had this big white screen with the big Google and the search bar on it. Everyone was using this Google search bar and search engine. Now, of course, Google's just a phenomenon and how how well they were able to take over search and create a business out of that. Of course, before that, there was other portals were the big things where you had lots and lots of features and they were trying to drive to the portal to do this and do that. Yahoo was a big one still around, but then Google said, "No, it's all about search and then just they just massively took over that.

" And so, when you build a website, you have to take consideration for how it ranks in the searching, right? So some of the things you would do as a marketer would be tell us a little bit about how you help a website.

Yeah. Well that yeah that's actually a funny story because this has been evolving and changing so many times. Uh back then it was all about Google like you said. Google used to run the show uh and you uh were pretty much following whatever they said.

You know every time we will uh expecting an update we were just reading the rules and following the rules so you can you know rank with Google and and be a good student a good you know uh client for Google um but then at one point um we realized that it was not fair because uh everything turned into ads everything uh really uh you know small companies couldn't compete with large ones spending thousands and thousands of dollars and on hours and it was so unfair because we had clients with an amazing product but they were like deep down the least of results because they were not paying enough. So that's when we started focusing on on organic optimization.

And I'm talking 10 years ago or more probably. Um and we said, you know, I think that organically and by um throwing content on the website, linking the website to relevant sites, we're going to gain that first page spot that everybody was looking for. And we made it. I mean actually we were very successful back then um competing with ads that they were paying like a lot of money and we were showing up right below them you know organically.

So um but yeah again you know now the whole chain you know the whole game changes again with AI um the focus is not on on on us anymore.

Um we need to keep in mind that uh by the end of this year 80% of the traffic we're going to get on our website is going to be bots. So the optimization goes towards them, not humans anymore.

Um, and bots are intelligent and uh they are not going to believe that you said you're the best just because you said you are the best and they're going to try to find out and grab information from relevant site from sites that are already being um you know confirmed as valid uh to validate your information. So the opisation uh from now on is going to be critical offite.

Um so that's why I'm saying you know we can come back to have a pretty website an efficient one with a nice navigation and user experience

but the optimization and the your story going to has to be told outside your website.

Um

okay so let me just let me tell you where I think the milestones were. So we talked a little bit about the portals and the shift to sort of Google which was a search bar and then we had paid ads coming in and they would shift all the other websites down. So the paid ads and then there was the organic stuff at the bottom.

Um and I think that's sort of where we were before AI and but everybody everybody I speak to now says yeah I'm using it and what they're using is the chat and of course the chat links them to the content. So they're going in through the chat bot to find the websites now.

Yeah, correctly. We pretty much ask ChatGPT or Google Gemini um you know everything. Oh, we should brush our teeth, you know, every morning.

Um and uh guess what? ChatGPT is not going to show you Google AdWords.

Yeah. You know, so uh you again relay on the organic, but now the organic it's not throwing a lot of content on your website anymore.

It's not about filling up pages like we used to do, you know, with with content and you know, a lot of blogs and stuff.

Um even even more today with the amount of autogenerated content people is putting out there. I mean, it's impossible to index all that information. So, um, again, you know, I think the the key is going to be on where you place your content and make sure that, uh, wherever you place it, it's it's, you know, a relevant, uh, portal or or someone that has that, um, I don't know what's the the exact word, but not relevancy, but approval, you know, from from the net

to make it valid, you know,

validation. Yeah,

validation basic.

I heard a statement recently that SEO or search engine optimization is dead. What's your opinion on that?

It's it's Yeah, I'm going to change a letter. It's instead of search engine optimization is search agent optimization.

Good. All right. I like that. Search agent optimization.

I said it recently.

I mentioned that uh on another uh meeting that we were having and I say hey if you heard it from me first it's you know search agent optimization from now on

yes and a search agent so everyone knows what we're talking about is ChatGPT right or the things that go behind

there are many yeah exactly there are many

are you using ChatGPT and other other you know um tools like chat.

Yeah. Daily. Daily. Yeah. ChatGPT. Um I'm not a a Google fan because like I said, I had a battle with Google. A long time battle with Google. I don't like monopolies. Uh I like uh decentralization. I like uh you know

blockchain and and all that stuff.

So uh

uh when someone is trying to force us to uh follow a path uh I'm not there.

Yeah.

I'm I'm the black sheep. So but yeah ChatGPT every day um you know for the team it's it's using different also AIs for graphics for animation like group like Leonardo we started you know with Leonardo three years ago or four years ago when the released

so um yeah yeah it's uh helping us a lot to speed up the process that's the key it's speed

right it's uh what it used to take weeks it it literally takes hours now so Well, you know,

so does that threaten your business though to to have things done so quickly now because of course your competition is doing things so quickly.

Does that mean

No, no, no, no. We don't need to feel threatened at all. This is a tool that we need to embrace that we need to use and learn how to use it and apply in whatever you know our industry is. Um but it's just another tool and um what will make the difference is how intelligent you are to use it you know how you apply it

um because hey it's available for everyone now you know so like I own a small agency compared to the big boys that are out there but the big boys are now scratching their head because we got the same capabilities than them.

Uh back then you know uh we couldn't compete with those type of um giant agencies because the resources they had were just ridiculous far ahead of us. We could not afford

uh you know uh to make the the type of research they do but now a we can you know what I mean so um

so when you say research I got my ideas about that what do clients need in terms of research

well you know whatever you are going to do in your business you need to do a a basic market research understand your customer persona and uh the behaviors uh And I think uh in this aspect AI is fantastic because you can build reports in minutes.

Yeah.

You know it's massive.

It will take you more time to read through that really get them. You know what I mean?

That's right. So um yeah, you know, it's like I said, the the the learning cycle, uh what used to take when we used to throw out a campaign, we used to wait weeks for results, then analyze the results, make adjustments,

boom, that's all gone.

That everything happens now within hours.

Yeah.

So, you know, that also helps.

Definitely speed. Yeah.

I I um my history goes back to before computers and I always used to wonder how you found out about things you know I had my parents and my family to ask but let's say for example there was one time I wanted to know about the Concord about you know about how fast it flew for example now I didn't have the internet so where do I go well my parents don't know my friends don't know so I go to the library and of course you're faced with the Dewey Decimal System and you got to try and find a book that you think relates to that.

Yeah.

And you find the book and you go through it. I mean, it's literally a morning's work to try and find one thing about the top speed of a Concord.

Now, I could literally do it in 20 seconds or 10 seconds.

Oh, yeah.

And not only that, it would tell me so many other related things, questions that come from that. It's amazing, isn't it?

Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly what is happening. And um we live in a really fast uh moving u you know environment. Everything is evolving so fast and we're making a lot of mistakes because of that too. You know unfortunately um every time we get this type of advanced technology in our hands without education

we make mistakes. Uh we made it with cell phones when we gave them to our kids uh 15 years ago uh 20 years ago.

Uh

and social media when we gave that to our kids when

social media you know we didn't know we just knew so we all you know jump on it like crazy and start using it wrong

you know uh and um unfortunately

uh I hope one day we will realize that we need to educate before we release

you know these type of things I mean ChatGPT came like a storm

right nobody was expecting what is this boom we were like Oh, what?

Yeah. Yeah.

And Yeah. You know, and unfortunately, we got the good and the bad, you know, and uh we're the light and the darkness both using the same, you know, tool.

Uh but

have you seen any like big mistakes in that have been done either from your use of that particularly on a professional side where you've

Yeah. Well, the mistakes I mean you know AI it's doesn't have a soul Pete

and uh and that is what makes us different and that is going to make us survive through all these uh because if you rely just on the code and the algorithms uh you're going to lose the essence of your brand, the essence of your company. You're going to be a ghost. Um, and um, that's going to be boring for people because now it's all hype, you know, a little bit. You know, you were asking me help or hype. I they will both.

But guess what?

We're going to get burned. We're going to get like really tired of so much fake content. So much we you we don't know. We no longer know what is real or what is not.

Yes.

I mean, yes.

You don't know if I'm real right now or I'm an AI probably because of my accent and all the errors that I make talking. You know I am real.

That's right. But don't worry, AI can make mistakes, too.

But uh but yeah, I mean uh this is like the it's a bubble, you know, AI is the same. Uh and we are with the uh the hype still. Uh but then it's going to settle and we're going to use it smartly. We're going to start slowing down.

We're going to really appreciate the real human contact more than ever,

you know.

So, um, if you ask me, you know, um, the agency, the person that is going to win is not that one that uses AI is the one that combines,

you know, uh, AI with, uh, thinking, you know, with human touch. Exactly.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, you talk about the soul. I I I feel also strongly that people need human connection.

Um um for me I would say it's because ultimately we were tribal or we were you know somehow in the forest you know living together in a troop um you know to use the the sort of chimpanzeee analogy where we we we survive because of our connection right and we on our own we're vulnerable in a group we're secure and safe. So building those bonds with people is very fundamental to to how we're built and that isn't going anywhere. You know, we still need and we crave constant connection. Um and you know what I think is funny, just take this another step further is is that sometimes people are using AI to create a connection to something artificial.

Yeah. Yeah.

We you know um you probably heard of uh this Norway Sebastian. It's it's actually a kid that uh launched companion an AI um uh system that basically it's like your own therapist uh that you can you know relay on and and tell your story and your your you know your feelings and you will help you go through difficult moments. I think it's great. I also seen um an amazing project for the elderly that uh helps them you know with you know not feeling alone because a lot of you know um older people is going through very difficult times by just uh being alone and um dealing with the mental problems.

Um

I think again if we use it right and u we can take advantage of this and and and make it work. Uh but if we relay on it only um I think we're doomed

uh as a human

I think that's a very good insight Dante.

Yeah

I I've been practicing using it instead of as a tool but as a partner you know so as if I had a business partner just sitting there to help me with some of my business decisions. Um, I found that to be very helpful because it helps flush out my own thinking. It's as if I'm when I express it, I have a chance to think it through. And that's something I've noticed other people do as well in a human interaction.

When they explain something, they kind of realize themselves the answer to the problem. And so, in a way, it's forcing you to explain to something and then it comes back with such positive things like, "Oh, that's a really good insight, Pete. " You know, it's like a really friendly partner. Well, you know, AI makes you smarter, you know, and uh but I mean, operationally, no doubt about it. Operationally, no doubt about it.

Um but then strategically um your experience counts you know

uh the 20 plus years you may have been involved in in in technology uh the market knowledge the you know the the real case scenario you know the the

those things separate you from AI AI doesn't have that

you have it so that's what I'm saying uh those that are going to win are go those that will combine that experience, real, you know, human life experience with

the operation,

what AI brings and balance it, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. I I I get you. I really get you on that. I think

I think we should embrace it as new technology.

Um, just like cell phones, just like the internet, just like things that we use on a daily basis that help us, but don't don't take it too far. Don't turn off those other human things. And I just want to explore another idea that came up with with a previous guest and that is you know as people who are more senior than uh someone say straight of school who's been using ChatGPT we have a kind of an advantage now that was not necessarily obvious to us because we can spot when AI is making a mistake because of our experience. Do you think that's a relevant point? Oh yeah, like I said before, I mean, you know, we our generation live throughout the transition of analogic to digital.

Uh the kids that are being born in, you know, 10 years uh old or or or younger, they will never get that experience.

So we need to somehow uh transmit that to them. This is our our duty. This is our job really. When I, you know, I have twin daughters. They are 19 years old.

I didn't buy them a cell phone until they were 15.

And I've been discussing this with them since they were eight. That was the first time they asked for a phone. They were eight years old. They come back home and say, "My my friends at school, they get a phone

and why are we not getting a phone? " And I say, "Look,

this a phone is, you know, it's a tool of communication. Who do you need to call?

You going to call me? No, I'm going to pick you up at school, see, you know, drive you everywhere. So, you need to call anyone. You don't need to search an address or anything because I'm taking you everywhere. The day that you are going to be going out and then need a device to call or make a search on that address, then you're going to get a phone. And that was until they were 15 years old.

Yeah. And um I cut social media, I cut everything, you know, but that is because of my experience.

My job was to transmit that,

you know. I've been working with technology for a long time and I had that knowledge. I knew it wasn't good. I knew it. But most parents, they didn't know.

And that's the big mistake we made.

AI, it's the same. You know, what are you gonna do with your child? Are you gonna teach him to do homework with AI?

You know, we're going to make them AI dependent. So, we're going to have brainless,

you know, uh people in 20 years from now. They're they're going to be so dependent on what AI is telling them that they're not going to be able to think by themselves. That is be a huge mistake.

Then maybe some people they want that because it's easier to carry the ship, you know.

Yeah. So, you think you've gone down the path of the future, which is going to be my questions. We talked about the history, we talked about the now.

Where's AI taking us?

Oh, hopefully. You know, I I'm a very positive person. I'm not going to lie to you. I always see the right side of, you know, things. And um the bottle and the glass is always half uh, you know, full, not empty. Um hopefully we're going to be smart enough to use all these to improve uh a lot of aspects of what we are doing. Um we do not realize how appreciative we should be for the way we live today, you know. Um just go 100 years back and people were like being barbarians, right? So uh now we have rights and we are free and we you know we have a a wonderful you know mother earth that we need to take care of.

Um

I think that uh AI is going to make us help realize about the importance of all this and appreciate it more.

Okay.

And of course it's going to help you know keep speeding up processes improving making them more efficient but hopefully not to make money. You know what I mean? Um,

uh, we're using AI again to take advantage of, you know, we're applying into business. I want to see AI working in other departments,

you know, that's what I'm waiting for.

I am waiting for for AI to tell us really what to do with our natural resources, how to really take care of them, you know, how to really

uh uh instruct our child on how to take care of this planet because we only have one,

you know.

Um I love the I think it's brilliant uh the tagline that that this organization is using. There is no planet B. You know,

they think so. They want to go to Mars and stuff like, "Yeah, sure. Go ahead. Knock yourself. "

You know what I mean? So hopefully, yeah, that, you know, AI is going to help uh in other areas that we're not seeing yet,

but we will, you know.

So, we're coming to the end of our time, but um I'm going to ask you a key question, but before we do, um is there anything you would like to say or questions you have for me?

No, no. I mean, what I would like to say for anyone watching this video is that um uh spend time on educating yourself about the the subject. Uh do not uh let others tell you you know how things work or what you should do or you know educate yourself.

Yeah.

If you're parenting, if you are uh starting a business, if you are uh selling your business, if you whatever stage of life or business you are

um educate yourself so you can ma make u more uh good decisions you know in every single aspect of your life.

Yeah. Aren't they?

Yeah.

And perhaps not to rely on AI just for the education, but actually talk

No, no, no. I mean, educate yourself about AI, how to use AI, then apply AI the right way.

Um,

because uh like we did with social media, we weren't using it correctly. We were just wasting our time, you know. I don't use social media anymore.

Um, no, I'm done. I'm done with social media. I used to do it because I, you know, I'm a citizen of this global village. I've been living in three different countries and I use social media to show my family, my friends, how my daughters were growing and, you know, things like that.

But then I realized that um I was really really wasting my time and I can do that in a complete different way. Uh still feel the love of my people and not being dependent on what people is saying or what others are doing or always looking at the neighbor's yard and the the grass always grow greener on the

neighbor. I'm done. I'm you know maybe because I'm getting older, you know what I mean?

Yeah.

Um but I started so early on this that uh by now I I already know it's not worth it.

Yeah. Well, some good advice there, Dante.

So our final question for you then is AI hype or help

of I think throughout the the the chat we answer but um I will say a little bit of both right now we are at the end of hype uh definitely help

we need to use the tool we need to use AI to improve every single aspect of our lives. Uh not just a business job, not just to make more money but also you know uh like I said in in other departments because um money comes and goes uh health no you know if you

are not healthy you know you could run uh you know um run we say in Spanish it's run against the carrot you know chasing the carrot like a rabbit it to grab it.

Um and and then when you turn back, you don't know who your kids are because they grew without you.

And who are you going to get that time back?

That's right. All right.

Good advice there, Dante. Well, thank you on the show and for spending this time with us. It's been a real pleasure.

No, no, the pleasure is mine. Thank you for thinking of me. Thank you for again me this space. Um, I love the the topic, you know, I am always in search of what is next. Uh, you know, I will never get tired of learning and educating myself uh in the subject. So, whenever you need me, you know where to find me.

All right. Thank you, Dante. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Pet.

Thank you, everyone.

Well, I hoped you enjoyed listening to Dante as much as I enjoyed talking to him today. He had some key insights about AI, including how important it is that we learn all new technology and had some great examples about technology around cell phones and how he rolled that out to himself and his family. Also, he uses um AI in his everyday and his team use it as well. He doesn't see it as a threat to people's jobs. In fact, he sees that it can make him more competitive. So, if you want to find out more about Skillion, please follow the links in the description.

If you want to know anything more about our guest or any of the tools and products we talked about, follow those links, too. I hope that helps and thanks for watching.