Human vs AI: Who Wins in Branding?

And when people then when it kind of gets to this level where you don't really know if that's human or AI and it's just a completely fabricated like could be a runner a running influencer but it's it's just an AI image like video.

You've already alluded to the fact that you went live to concerts and lifestyles. This is real people doing real stuff in real time. Does the AI content generation fit in there? I don't think it will replace that human touch, but I think for certain like if people just want to get away and go into fantasy, that's that's the opportunity there.

AI, is it hype or help? Good day and welcome to the show. I'm your host Pete Cooper and our topic is AI hype or help.

Today's guest is Oli Russell-Cowan. He's a brand adviser and he helped if not instrumented the growth of a very big brand in mountain water called liquid death or murder your thirst as their catchphrase is. We're going to go in deep on marketing particularly lifestyle marketing and how it has been affected or is affected by AI. So let's get into it. Oie, welcome to the show. How you doing today? Yeah, really good, Pete. Thanks for having me on.

Yeah, thanks. Thanks. Thanks for coming on. Now, where are you based? That's the number one question.

Uh, so I'm based over in Portugal, close to Lisbon, about 30 minutes away from the city in a town called Cascais,

right?

Don't know Portugal very well, but love to go there. But you're not from Portugal, are you?

Uh, I'm not. No. So, I'm originally from from London

and yeah, I've kind of been bouncing here, there, and everywhere. But I've I've called Portugal home now, coming up to about seven years.

Yeah.

And then prior to that, I was in in Sydney in Australia for about six and a half years over there.

Uh, and we were talking Yeah. Uh about you when you were growing up over there on sort of south coast of Sydney and stuff and in and around those areas.

That was really funny. It was really funny because the name of my company uh is Skillion.

Uh and Skillion is a place I used to go as a kid and a teenager because there was a surfing area which you and I have both surfed at. Right. It was the terrible point or the terrible Skillion is what I used to call it and that's where the name for my company comes from.

Yeah. Nice. Um what an amazing place. I mean, we used to try and escape there. Like, we'd either go up to a voca sort of area or we go down to Teragle. Uh, yeah.

So, my wife and I have some fond memories

sort of camping out and and the point there and yeah, trying to get in and go go surfing at Dorny's and first first thing in the morning and then come back and yeah, all the kind of all the free like gas barbecues around around the coast there. I I miss that. That's for sure.

Yeah. Just quick another quick segue. I didn't mention this the other day. Do you know where the name Taggle comes from?

Um, I don't know.

So, it's an Aboriginal word for place of the birds.

Oh, no way.

Yeah.

Place of the birds. Terrible.

There we go.

And for the audience, you got to drive about an hour and a half north of Sydney, Australia to get to a beachside place where I grew up, where Ollie was uh surfing a few years back. Um, and a beautiful part of the world. Definitely uh great for surfing. You know, there's a very famous surfer who was in the same school as me. His name is Ross Clark Jones. He actually made the international circuit, did some movies and other things like that. He was two years below me.

But I tell you, when it came to surfing, he was many levels above me and everybody else. He was in a class of his own. Um and just stop talking, but I can't.

My mother actually worked for his father.

Um, so I kind of knew his family. Yeah. And uh,

so you must have some good stories about him growing up. He was a bit of a wild man.

He was very wild. I don't know whether they're podcast worthy. Actually, we'll have to talk about them offline.

Yeah,

definitely.

Definitely a wild man. All right, Ollie. So, those little segways, very interesting, fun. Tell us what you do. So I uh I guess now sort of work on on lifestyle marketing for brands uh specifically within food and drink and I've had a bit of a I guess a yeah varied career but it all sort of started off within action sports and yeah I guess sort of linking back to to a passion passion with surfing.

Yeah.

Food and drink. When you say lifestyle, what does that mean if I was to unpack that?

Yeah. So, I guess working with with cultural like cultural first brands, lifestyle brands, and what that would mean is that they're they're trying to tap into either a certain scene or community or lifestyle in general. Yeah.

So that could be anything from music, health, wellness, all those kind of things. And then what I do on the side of it is sort of credibly like integrate the brand into certain scenes and communities without paying essentially for for sponsorship fees or things like that. So be getting getting the product or the service in the right hands, the right people, events and venues.

Now going to show my age here, but when I think of lifestyle marketing, a few brands come to mind, but I always think of the Mulro guy, the cowboy.

Do you remember? Do you know who I'm talking about?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So this guy was the cow quintessential cowboy. Uh and he would smoke Marlboro cigarettes. And so that brand became a a very successfully marketing campaign where is that a lifestyle? Is is that cowboy the lifestyle that they're selling that they're marketing to?

I think for that I'd sort of look at that and go, you know, it's sort of like back then like the aspiration aspiration of cool of the cowboy and that kind of when I guess westerns were massive and and and eastward and things like that, you know, like

that's what I think about and like that sort of Americana sort of aspect of it. Um, it's almost I guess I would sort of think like, you know, you could chuck like like Levis's in that as well. Sort of that that that kind of approach. I guess now it's sort of more I guess more sort of like passion or participantled. So,

okay.

To give you I mean we can and we can go into the liquid death stuff uh in a bit. Yep.

Yeah.

I mean, that was sort of like looking at brands that are then um they're already part of a scene or the people that the founder or the people that work within the company within the brand, you know, they're they they may be into into tennis or now say paddle or or they're yoga instructors, whatever it may be. They belong to a community and it's sort of like it's it's those those brands that sort of have this lifestyle that then just sort of naturally integrates with what people are interested in and what they do, who their communities are, what scenes they're at,

where they go for coffee, you know, which sort of restaurants, bars they go to.

Maybe it is around a particular area, but it wouldn't necessarily lead like be led by demographics. It's more psychographic. So, um, yeah, that the age thing is is sort of, I guess, not 100% relevant. It's more

down to this these sort of subsectors and subcultures.

Well, we touched on mountain biking the other day and biking. Um, I actually started my mountain biking back in uh back in the UK. I've always been into bikes, motorbikes, everything. And still and built my own brand, Skilling Bikes as well, ebike brand. I can see a lifestyle here where you have your bike, you ride your bike around New York City and then you maybe go mountain biking or you go crosscountry biking.

Mhm.

Are we touching on the lifestyle here?

100%.

Okay.

Yeah. So for that I mean that's sort of like it's just something like like all these different areas say for mountain biking like there's a massive scene where I am in a place called CRA. There's also a big mountain biking scene in the city like right in Lisbon there's a big park there

with like some amazing trails. Yeah.

So that is whether you know brands like Fox um or yeah when you're kind of like thinking of of different bike biking brands or or or like whether that's hardware apparel they they kind of they're a part of that lifestyle.

They're part of that scene because the people that uh are are building those brands they mountain bike. So

yeah 100%. And and that you see that so much in the way they market. They they market that lifestyle. They show somebody, you know, jumping or going down a trail or, you know, out in this beautiful wilderness scene.

Um not necessarily I mean Tram might be one of those I call them cogs and gears kind of company and more than that but they're going to show the lifestyle not necessarily the specs of the cogs and gears but in a way you you you drive them to that through the lifestyle marketing you drive them to understanding uh the value of the cogs and chains and the specs associated with that. And so by okay I think I understand what lifestyle marketing is. It's basically, yeah, if you're passionate about something, you know, it could be gaming, it could be like, you know, certain certain type of like genre of podcasts and like you're interested in that like crime thrillers, whatever it may be.

It's then it's really kind of drilling it down and like I sort of find them like the niche you go like the stronger the community is normally.

Oh, interesting. Well, liquid death. Tell us what liquid death is. If you don't if anybody doesn't know.

So, uh they are a canned um beverage company based out of California, out of uh Santa Monica, Venice. Um they started just before COVID and they started as a water brand. So, the idea was

it was going to be uh a canned water that looked like a beer and uh Mike Cesario, the founder, came up with the idea of like, okay, well, what's the craziest thing that we can call this?

And and Liquid Death popped up and and they ran with it and it was sort of Yeah. Uh, I guess the original story is that he he was at a Vans Warp Tour, um, Park Croc Festival and, uh, people are backstage were pouring out cans of Monster and all like the artists, it was 35° uh, super hot and yeah, 35° centigrade. So, um, yeah, pretty pretty warm in Fahrenheit. And they were kind of like yeah basically pouring out these energy drinks and they're not going to be sort of taking one after another of of those things during the day and they were mixing it with uh they were just basically using this

this water um like tool water like tap water.

So he thought, okay, like if if all these musicians and artists are taking on stage, people think it's Monster Energy. Um there there could be something in in this. And then years later, that sort of was, I guess, the the birth of of of Liquid Deaf or the idea behind it. And then it was kind of just doing doing something a little bit differently specifically around marketing. I mean, Mike and and some of the initial core team had had a background in in advertising and and creative and it it was sort of looking at what would like essentially what's going to break the internet, what's going to garner attention because everyone's competing for for the same space.

You know, if people are just scrolling on their phone or on their desktop,

you know, it's just to even to kind of pop up is one thing, let alone getting people to stop in their tracks. So, so they were thinking, okay, like if we build it around making it entertaining rather than, you know, being being marketing, then, you know, people people will will engage with it and they'll tune in. And then that's one thing that they go, "Okay, if we're going to make it entertaining, let's let's lean heavy on humor and on comedy. " And that's what they did.

Oh, right. Totally get it.

So, it's kind of got this notion that it's like this heavy metal punk rock brand of water, but the whole thing was sort of a bit tongue and cheek.

Yeah. Right. They just sort of like naturally go together. You don't think of a punk rocker ever drinking water. You think, you know,

we they got to I like we've got to

you got to Yeah, it's it's not just beer. You got to stay hydrated as well.

No, no, no. That's just not punk at all. Right.

But it was one of those things where I think it got accepted within the scene. Like when I started, I I was heading up their lifestyle marketing for international.

So everywhere outside of the US was kind of sort of responsible for for getting it in the right places and into the right hands. We were doing a lot with uh with concerts and with music festivals and and in that in in that situation it sort of it just naturally fitted in where you know you could stand by a bar and instead of holding like you know a crappy bottle of plastic water

or asking for one behind the bar you could order a liquid deaf and it it it sort of looks like a craft beer and then you know it's got a skull on it. Like the whole sort of aesthetic of the logo and the branding and

got it.

Uh, you know, the the writing on the can, it's just sort of it it just was was part of that scene. And then I guess behind the scenes, the people that were involved in it, it was it was, you know, some of the investors were were bands like Metallica and, you know, they they did like collaborations and projects with Ozzy Osbourne when he was alive and people that like worked in the company were were part of the industry as well.

So it kind of fitted in that when when they did something they could just like they could reach out to their contacts, their friends, whether that was like, you know, professional skateboarders or like these sort of like these these I guess subcultures were which were just naturally fitted because the people and the employees and the founder they they were part of that anyway.

Nice. Wow. So you got propelled really. Um, there's I mean I go to the supermarket and grab myself some plastic bottles. I don't even remember. I think Mount Franklin might be one of the names that stands out, but there's half a dozen of them. In Invita, I think might be another one.

But they are just this indescript little bottles. They don't really have much appeal, do they? Um, and they certainly don't look cool if you're hanging out at the bar at a punk rock show. And that I mean the whole image of rock and the roll rock and roll image is largely how how they look. Not necessarily the reality behind that but how they look. Right. So I can totally see how it fits. But that was a really key insight wasn't it? I mean you guys were obviously hanging around. You talked about the origin story where you saw it from and then you just ran with it. But you have to be there at the time um to see it emerge. Yeah. Cool. So Ollie, what was your play in this?

What did what did you what was your role?

Uh so yeah, I was I guess in charge of uh what it would be uh then known as like cult indoctrination uh for for international. So what that means is that you know when we would launch in a new location I'd like parachute in and try and like open open up my network or like reach out to to friends and and contacts that I knew within different industries. So, um, action, sports, music, [snorts] events, festivals, uh, and yeah, just see if if they would be keen like essentially just to try it out. And it was the same playbook that they used in America.

So, it was like sending water to like action sports events, say, uh, a skateboarding competition for example, or, um, sending it to friends that are in bands, uh, and sending it to them for backstage for their green rooms. And then you know all of a sudden they're taking it on stage. Uh they had a pretty unique line of merchandise as well which was super fun. So it it sort of it was more than the can. I mean it sort of like the whole

the whole brand came to life through through the merch and just the different campaigns that they did. Uh and then that was some fun things to play with as well.

So like you know like getting that to to um to to the right musicians and then seeing them you know turn up on stage in front of 80, 000 people and they're wearing like a pink liquid death sweatshirt with like a a white skull logo um on the front. Those kind of things were basically part of a job. Um, which is a bit weird. It's weird to say now, but it was super fun like doing that. And it's sort of like,

you know, 15-year-old me, it was sort of you're like hanging out with your heroes, um, going to these different events and festivals. It was it was really fun.

Wow. Yeah, I can imagine traveling the world and as you say, going to all these places.

So, the fact that it's seen, it's being recorded by, I guess, thousands of people are holding their phones up, plus you've got your own channels, there's so much content being generated around uh that one scene where he walks on with the liquid death t-shirt or sweatshirt.

Um, that's huge. That's huge in terms of visibility, right? And then you that just propels you can say, "Oh, look, Metallica did this. "

Um, you want to do this, too. So one thing builds on the other. Amazing. So you still doing that or or moved on from there? What are you doing now?

Uh yeah. So so that kind of uh ran ran for about 18 months. They they decided that they were going to focus on the US market.

So the the the room it was then to to kind of scale back international. So they they tried it. Uh and then sort of from from like I guess a sort of strategy point of view, yeah, they had to make the the US sort of work at all costs. Um [snorts] and then that's where like the majority that's where it's from, that's where it's born. The majority and the traction was just there. So maybe they revisit international again one day. I'm not sure. Um, so since then I uh yeah um built a uh I was the co-founder of a branding sort of brand marketing agency and then more more recently I've kind of set out on my own.

So like choosing sort of uh specific [snorts] specific projects that are more aligned into basically where where I can add the most value and that sort of leads back to that lifestyle marketing and and the network um piece and it's sort of yeah I mean looking at what brands to take on is is then interesting going that okay well if if they need a way into certain scenes if I feel that you know that I can assist there then um I can try and help but it's there's definitely you know there's multip like hundreds of thousands of different lifestyles and a lot of them it's sort of like okay well I don't have connections in in those places, but

I know people who who probably do.

So then there's kind of there's ways of fitting it in. But um yeah,

the the the music scene,

the the heavy metal scene.

Uh yeah. So um sport, um action sports, uh sports,

wellness, fitness, um music and entertainment

are probably the sort of yeah crossover areas. Uh so before Liquid Death the reason how I kind of got involved with that uh I I used to work within the action sports industry. I used to work for a publisher um in in London years and years ago which kind of got got me into it. But they they used to have all the uh all the board sports magazines.

So like the surfing titles, snowboarding, skateboarding and uh yeah, I was doing all the ad sales and then when I was in Australia, I started a events of festivals platform called Rad Season and

that was uh yeah kind of started off looking at okay what are the main surfing big surfing events in Australia and then it was like a an integrated platform where we we linked in with we had like an affiliation with Airbnb and with Booking.

Com and people could basically find out where the events were around the world or in this case like when we started off Australia and then they could book them and then it went to going okay well there's so many fun events everywhere around the world where would I want to go to and I kind of got a bit carried away and I was like oh there's this like amazing snowboarding Munich uh music festival in Whistler uh up in Canada like that that would be pretty fun to have on the website and then there's October Fest in Munich in Germany and there's like this insane tomato festival food fight in in Spain in Valencia and so on and so on.

So, um that basically turned into like thousands of uh thousands of events on uh on rad season and then when COVID happened uh all the events literally like as everyone knows stopped overnight. He couldn't couldn't leave the house

and it was pretty strict in a lot of places. So I turned into doing a podcast and was like doing doing it live which was pretty scary. I wouldn't say I'm a natural public speaker. I used to stutter as a kid in school. I'm dyslexic.

So it was uphill battle.

Well, you're doing a great job here today.

But it was uh yeah, I just thought like whatever. Let's just do this and let's have these conversations and and see how it goes.

And off the back of that turned into a TV show um on Fuel TV on like a cable action sports cable channel, but they had their offices in Lisbon.

Uh and then yeah, getting the the guys on uh the founder of Liquid Death on really really early on was kind of like how I got into into the beverage industry and yeah, here we are. Well, we should hang around after the show because I got some more things for you. But there's one thing I have to bring up and that is a thing called MusicFest. It's here in Bethleam, Pennsylvania. And you might think, who cares? Well, how about a thousand entertainers coming in for a 10-day period from all over the United States.

Um, the town just explodes with people. It happens every year. It's called Music Fest with a K. Um, maybe Liquid Death fits nicely with Musicfest. They have punk, they have heavy metal, they have country, they have folk, they have local, they have Z, they had ZZ Top a few years ago. They got had uh Steve Miller Band. I mean, this is a big deal. I didn't know anything about it until I moved here. Now it's a thing every year. I almost take it for granted. All I think about is the amount of traffic

problems I'm gonna have and parking problems I'm gonna have when this town is inundated with people uh coming to music fest. So, we're going to talk about that offline in a little bit. Right.

So, let's segue into the topic which is AI. How is that affecting you? Are you using it? Is it using you? Where do you see AI fitting in here? Uh, so I use it daily,

like 100%. I almost sort of use it as like aspiring partner. Uh, and what I mean by that is sort of like if I've got an idea, I'll kind of jump into something and just dive in a bit more, try try and see where it goes. But

uh sort of the evolution of it all and just sort of how quickly and how advanced and and just yeah how how it's been kind of using it and sort of that trajectory.

I'd say it's made like a mixture between between text and sort of like for for creative uh as I was mentioning like earlier sort of like uh like being being dyslexic and sort of coming up with Yeah.

Just just putting putting pen to paper I would find like pretty challenging now with this it's just almost an aid but the the biggest sort of warning with what majority people aren't doing when they're using it is then just making sure that you are going through it and make like checking for mistakes and things like that and like

maybe maybe it's not happening as much but like uh like hallucinations and and things where it would just be like fabricating complete nonsense

it has to say something. I got a another video on exactly that topic where it it it wants to please you and it's it's very good at that, but it has to say something to please you and it'll make it up if it has to.

Yeah. And I think that's that's dangerous. So, it's just And then everyone kind of like knows if it doesn't feel real. Um, but yeah, like whether that's like

commenting or doing posts on social media or on LinkedIn or things like that or if you're doing outreach for sales emails, like it has to yeah, you need like a you need a set of eyes just like a human touch to then go through these things and sort of make sure that it doesn't look ridiculous.

And then I guess that kind of can go even further with really we like looking at at video content or or images and and um yeah like it's getting pretty sophisticated and it is getting to that level where you know people then obviously won't be able to know but

yeah I I I mean I use it too I would strategically as you said as a sounding board or a sparring partner and I think actually for marketing in my opinion it does a pretty good job of that and I think the reason is there's a lot of marketing material out there for the models to train on.

So they get a pretty good sense about um about uh about how marketing works and can point you in the right I I've noticed and tell me if I'm wrong that it does a pretty good job on marketing does a terrible job on some other things like some real world stuff.

I've got a a short about me asking it to do I drive the car to the car wash or do I walk and it says walk and I said well how do you get there if how do you get the car there if you don't drive it there and then it kind of spars with me back and forth like it doesn't really have a sense of reality for something that it can't

see for itself even though a human would know that was

totally illogical it doesn't have exposure to that but marketing I think especially online marketing it knows a lot about that

I I think there's sort of so much I mean it's just essentially just sort of scraping the internet and what's already on there.

So there's so much content around marketing and around sort of certain aspects of it whether that's marketing strategy or branding whatever it may be but it's

it's just compiling it and then it like the original thoughts aren't there though. So it's sort of something that yeah it can for best practice and stuff it can help and it can kind of give a bit of a structure if you need assistance on you know a certain part of your work

but like that originality is 100% not there and I think that's something where like I've I've sat in meetings knowing

say with like another agency would be in the room and they're trying to palm off work that I 100% know is like it's just AI ideas Yeah.

And they're trying to claim them as their own,

right?

So, um, things like that.

What gives it away, Ollie? What What gives it away when somebody's trying to do that? Do you have a sense of or you just you is it just gut feel?

Um, I think with that it's almost like you can kind of you can do like a quick prompt um depending on sort of what the topic is and it will just it will put it will generate the same thing.

Oh, okay.

So, so, so then you look at it and go, "Okay, well, those five ideas that they've come up with for for a campaign

as well. It's just like it's it's not them.

Um,

so I think stuff like that, you know, like like the the actual sort of like thinking thinking time, the creativity, the spark of like doing something that's different, the getting out of like the echo chamber of like what could be possible and that's just sort of influences from all from just life and different industries. I think sometimes people would like look look within what their competitors are doing a little bit too much.

Yeah.

Um and then from the basis of what you're then like feeding feeding AI sort of just coming up with stuff that say other competitors have done or other brands have done you know.

Yeah.

Um instead of thinking like oh that's what

something in a completely different industry did that

could be tweaked and could and you could do a variation of that. And I'm not saying, you know, like everything has to be like, you know, brand new. You don't have to reinvent the wheel the whole time, but it's just like thinking a bit differently and sort of taking taking influence from other areas.

Yeah. I think here's a here's an analogy that was given to me that it's a little bit like having a McKinsey, you know, McKinsey is that big consulting agency.

Bit like having a McKinsey partner right there.

Now a a McKinsey partner is very smart, very good at helping you, very good at guiding you, but he can't tell you about your industry. That's comes from you. So if I was to say Ollie, you know, you work with McKinsey partner, he's going to be asking you lots of questions about the industry and then he's going to be super smart in getting it, I guess, structured for you or organized for you or helping you, getting other resources for you and then bringing that back to you and but it's ultimately up to you to have that knowledge and that insight from your industry.

How do you think about that? Do you think it works like a Mackenzie partner?

Uh, I think what in terms of using it yourself as that?

Yeah. Yeah. You said

for I kind of like Yeah. I kind of like like to think of it like, you know, if we sit down and go, say if you're having a hard time trying to prioritize what you're going to do and like that day, like you could go, okay, well, I've got this, like these 10 things to do.

And you know like having like a million tabs open and go what what is the everyone sort of everyone knows that what you should be doing is that first is the hardest thing that it kind of just gets pushed back on the pile and you sort of like wait till the afternoon and then don't get around to doing it and then it just falls over to the next day or you know the next week. So just kind of yeah going through things like that and just using it as that kind of tool.

I know for for what I do like if I'm going to go into a new area it would be like okay well how can I like effectively use it for like if I'm taking a brand to a market I don't know too well or I don't have like too many connections there. Where should I be? Where does that brand fit in

in that market?

Right? And then what do I need to know before I kind of go out and do that?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

If that makes sense.

Yeah, it does make sense. So, you're using I guess chats like chatt or clawude and those those kind of

I I always call them retail um AI experiences chats. So, but the other thing we touched on was image generation.

Uh I guess I'm going to pull that under content generation. Yeah,

I always think this is a challenging subject because you've already alluded to the fact that you went live to concerts and lif styles. This is real people doing real stuff in real time. Does the AI content generation fit in there?

Uh in terms of like I I I think with all of this stuff like ha having AI there just having it in the room the whole in in real life is just it has been accelerated and then that's that's even

like more important to people now like getting out and having these experiences

right

but then online or like when they're on their phones and on their computers is having that capability of of like creating this content.

Uh whether that's for fun or for work,

it's exciting that it's there, you know. So I I kind of feel it's like it's a bit of

it's a bit of both.

I don't feel that because of AI it's like then

you know like I guess when when VR like when there was that massive push with virtual reality and it's like okay well people are just going to be like with their Oculus on at home and I don't know how How many billions Meta wasted on on all of that thinking that yeah, this is going to be the game changer and this is going to be the one and it wasn't.

Yeah.

So, uh yeah.

Well, maybe maybe it's still coming Ollie.

I don't know. I mean, it's getting Yeah. Again, it's sort of like when you look at the glasses in comparison to like, you know, the headsets and everything just getting smaller and Yeah.

and more sophisticated.

So

I mean what's happening in Ukraine at the moment is they're all using these firstperson view um devices and that where are the headsets, you know, the headsets that they use. I mean that's a very much a niche. It's not like everybody's using it, but I know plenty of gamers that use those VR things. Not for me. I mean I'm never I've never been a gamer and I when I'm a as soon as I step away from the computer, I try to do something that's not computer related at all. Like I go out to the workshop, work on my bikes or work on something. So, I'm someone who has a hard switch, but as soon as I'm away from the computer, I'm not on the computer.

Um, so putting the goggles on wouldn't be something I would go back to.

But I know plenty of people that do, they'll work all day on the computer and they'll relax by doing that or maybe some kind of

uh taking them away. Um so I guess where I was thinking of going with this conversation is AI can generate an enormous amount of content um very easily. Press of a button, you can push up, you know, images, you can create videos. Um,

and they can be they can create the content for you extremely

cheaply, much more cheaply than parachuting only into a concert and giving it, you know, you can pretty much manufacture whatever you want to think about.

Is there a place for that type of content in marketing?

I think yeah.

Yeah. So in terms of like the rise of say AI influencers on social media is is a thing

and when people then when it kind of gets to this level where you don't really know if that's human or or AI

uh and it's just a completely fabricated like could be a runner a running influencer but it's you know it's just an AI like image like video um that will then kind of depict like that that's going to get more and more popular. And also because it's just the speed of doing it.

And so then the the influence and because if if influencers are then if they're promoting too many products that then aren't authentic to them, people just sort of switch off and they don't really believe it and it's like, okay, it's just another ad. But [snorts]

in terms of in in real life and in person, personally, I don't think it goes away because, you know, like AI can't replace a handshake and and the sort of the the connection that you can then have with someone when when you're meeting them face to face.

Yeah.

And the experience and how you feel in that moment, you know, and sort of it's it's not just it's just the whole sort of the sensory overload of say being at a concert and people wanting that even more because because of what's going on.

Yeah. Yeah. I think that one of the reasons we do podcasts is be and we do them in this sense of well it's live to us. Yeah. We do edit it afterwards. But I don't know what you're going to say. You don't know what I'm going to say. Some things are going to surprise me. Some things are going to delight me or whatever. There is that human emotion dynamic which comes into a real conversation.

And uh AI can't replicate that.

And I think even if it does replicate it, it doesn't land with people because it's not an authentic human being, right? An au you relate to another authentic human being. You don't relate to an AI incident. So the game sort of comes to me that and I have this game too going on. I'm saying is that AI generated? And I'm looking for the artifacts. Like it used to be the teeth was a problem, right? And now they've kind of fixed that.

Well, the extra fingers and stuff like that, right?

Must be extra fingers.

Like seven fingers and one hand.

Yeah. Yeah. Or teeth that are

That's not Will Smith.

That's right. Yes. Will Smith with his spaghetti. Perfect. Perfect thing.

We'll put that link in the description for that one. But that's I think they're overcoming all those little artifacts. We're getting we're getting better at spotting at it, but it's getting better at producing it.

Um, but to me, uh, tell me if I'm wrong, to me, I think people need to know that it's a real human when they don't want to see a replicated version of a human. That even if it's perfect in every way, they still need to know that it was a person that had that experience. I'm not sure. I I think it's sort of like when you look at like a younger audience or if I see like an AI video or a clip.

I remember like sort of like I've seen ones of like Liquid Death pop up or for different brands. I mean, maybe not the Coca-Cola one, which completely flops um Christmas time, but when it's something that's done really well and, you know, there's obviously a team behind it and they've used maybe multiple of tools.

Yes.

Uh I think there's something in that and I think that's something that

is just going to get better.

Yes.

And it's the same with sort of AI and music and like it's it's uh

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean there's some tracks out there now or like you know just playing around with it with friends like we were going to go on a boys um surf trip to the Maldives and we just created like a stupid album of just using like AI songs with all us like included and just things like that and it's kind of like you know then they get better they get more and more uh enhanced or improved like as time goes on you know so we'll do a new version and then like

it's just getting it just it's getting Um,

so I I think things like that people people will like lean into it.

Uh,

right.

I don't think it will replace that human touch, but I think for certain like if people just want to get away and go into fantasy, then that's that's the opportunity there.

Yeah. Gotcha. I think it comes down to the fact that whether you where you're being entertained, where you're being amused by it,

and I think where the way you're going makes sense now. It's it's now a case of well, okay, I will accept AI generated content if it stirs some emotion in me, whether it be humor, whether it be intrigue, whether it be uh drama. Um, and maybe I don't care if it's AI generated or not as long as it does that.

I think, okay, so I think I can split this down and say, look, if you're trying to be an authentic human, don't try to put AI in there because I think people are going to say, I don't like the lack of integrity. But if you're creating AI content, which is genuinely

AI generated and still really good, then there's a place for it.

Yeah,

I think so. And I think it's sort of like like with all these things especially within media and with marketing it's sort of like everyone kind of like it's like with the it's like when the internet arrived you know and and it just just the opportunities that are available. It's like that but on steroids.

Oh yeah. Isn't it?

Yeah.

I mean I was around when the internet started. I a guy coming into my office at the uni. I used to work for the uni and he said oh we got email. It's on this thing called the internet. I said what's that all about? I don't think I turned my email on for two years

now. God gracious, I can't I don't know anybody who is not using AI in some way. I don't know anybody. Um, so the uptake in this is just like nothing else on earth. It's so quick and it's so transformative.

Ollie, we're probably running out of time here. Do you have any questions that or comments or things you'd like to talk about?

Uh, yeah. I'm curious to see like all these conversations that you're having around AI.

Where where are you seeing it going?

I think it's going to have the most transformative effect um the world has ever seen. It's going to be the most pervasive technology, the most dis it's going to be the most disruptive, that's I guess a bad way of saying it, but also the most uh explosive change that we've ever seen. And it's going to happen faster than we've ever seen it. So I was just looking around some of my colleagues and half a dozen of them have lost their jobs literally in the last 6 months. Now going back six to 12 months before that I knew there was a huge displacement of overseas software developers.

I mean all of these people are sort of finding oh oh my goodness um and we're helping companies actively you know try to take advantage of AI to improve their revenues or lower their costs. I mean what is the consequences of that? You know AI is doing some work that humans were doing and that's an unfortunate side effect of this and I'll just put it out that anybody that is thinking about a career uh be adaptive to this change resisting it's like resisting the tide. You cannot work against it. You got to try and work with it

because it's going to make such a huge change. Yeah. What do you think Ollie? Where do you think it's going?

Um, I I think so.

I think if you try and not not fight it, but if you're sort of not Yeah. Like if it's just there in the background or you're not trying to learn what you can about it specifically around the field that you're in or maybe something new, then yeah, these things just like they they have a habit of just moving on without you anyway. So you kind of it's better to be clued up on it than than not.

Exactly. Exactly.

Is sort of how I feel about it. But I think it's exciting. I think it definitely is making you're more productive, but I'd say you're do you're doing more now.

I think everyone kind of had this idea that it was sort of just going to be, oh, I just

use it and then I'll be doing way less and I'll have more time to chill and relax. But I think it's the opposite. I think it's sort of like it can just be Yeah, it's a great tool, but it's sort of generating more more sort of work if you're using it in your day-to-day.

Yeah, I love those, you know, 1960s cartoons like the Jetsons where he goes to work in his flying car. Hey, where's my flying car? I don't sort of have my flying car and then he goes there and all he does is press a button.

Yeah,

that's all he does at work all day. That that future never came about. We just do more.

We just we have more objective responsibility. Um

uh whereas you know the scope of what we do has grown. And that's it's interesting you brought that up because I was on a call with a guy just this morning talking about bookkeepers and how it's important for them to level up into more financial advice rather than just being a bookkeeper or just a bookkeeper but being a bookkeeper leveling up and I think AI can definitely help there. Well, one last question for you Ollie. AI. Is it hype or help?

I think it's help.

Mhm.

Yeah. 100%. I think Yeah. I think it was probably I mean it's not brand new. So it was it's sort of like people looking back at it kind of where it was.

I mean those that were then in the industry building early models and they would sort of see and have a premonition of what we're getting today. But Yeah, for average person maybe they were looking back at it again going, "Oh, it's getting this stuff wrong. It's it's been, you know, and you look at like the evaluations and all this stuff with some of these new companies. "

Um,

nuts.

You could say you could say it could could have been hype then, but I mean, for me personally, it's it's a massive help.

Yeah.

Good.

And whether Yeah.

Whether like we'll just have to see where it goes as well, but um I'm I'm pro it for for some I'm pro on some some things, but then yeah, not so much on others. So,

yeah, let's let's see.

Let's see. All right, Ollie, thanks very much for being on the show. Really appreciate it. We'll have to have you back sometime soon. Stick around after this because I want to chat to you about MusicFest. All right.

Nice. Thanks, Pete. Thanks for having me on. Well, that was great talking to Oie about marketing and he has some great experiences in lifestyle marketing in particular liquid death.

He talked about how it started just before co um and how it how essentially came out of some backstage observations that he noticed uh and that it could take advantage of and to try and make a cool brand that s that suited the uh punk rock or the heavy metal lifestyle. Um but still served the need in terms of you know quenching thirst was a niche that they were able to exploit. So, that was interesting. But also, we went into how Ollie uses it for his day-to-day activities as a sparring partner, something he can riff off back and forward in order to germinate ideas, to test ideas, to work with. And we all know how good chatbots are at helping us to have a discussion.

But he also warned that you know walk an agency walking in to a board meeting when they've got five ideas that are um a AI generated it's pretty obvious and and it's easily checked by simply asking the question of an MLM and getting exactly the same answers. And then finally we talked about whether AI content has a place. Um, and I think we both agreed that when it's entertaining, when it's fun, it can be a genre all of its own, it has a place. When it tries to um, fool the audience into believing it's a real person, then I think it doesn't have a place. I think we agree with that.

So, if you want to know more about Ollie and his uh, brand advisory work, please follow the links in the description. If you want to know more about Skillion, please do the same. I hope that helps and thanks for watching.